Episode 2
Queering Animal Liberation with Christopher Sebastian
pattrice jones talks with Christopher Sebastian about queering animal liberation, toxic masculinity, and so much more.
Transcript
♪ (music) ♪ (rooster crowing)
Speaker:(pattrice jones) Welcome to In Context, coming to you from VINE Sanctuary,
Speaker:an LGBTQ-led farmed animal refuge in Vermont.
Speaker:We bring you conversations with authors and organizers,
Speaker:exploring the connections between animal advocacy, race,
Speaker:gender, and social justice
Speaker:to help put today's big questions in context.
Speaker:(music ends)
Speaker:Hi, welcome to In Context.
Speaker:I'm pattrice jones, zooming to you from VINE Sanctuary,
Speaker:an LGBTQ-led farmed animal sanctuary in Springfield, Vermont.
Speaker:And I'm here with the always fabulous
Speaker:writer, thinker and activist, Christopher Sebastian,
Speaker:and nobody knows what we're going to say today,
Speaker:least of all us.
Speaker:Before we jump in to our conversation,
Speaker:I'm thinking about an animal at the sanctuary called Sharkey
Speaker:who was a rooster rescued from cockfighting several years ago,
Speaker:and who I think you met Christopher,
Speaker:when you visited the sanctuary.
Speaker:Like many survivors of that form of animal abuse,
Speaker:Sharkey didn't want to be involved in any kind of drama.
Speaker:And he made it really clear
Speaker:that he didn't want to go to sleep in the coupes every night.
Speaker:He liked to spend time by himself far from the barn.
Speaker:So we made him his own little apartment, right by the airstream trailer,
Speaker:where I was living,
Speaker:and he had his own little house, Sharkey's place.
Speaker:He was a proud homeowner.
Speaker:And then Rocky started coming around courting Sharkey
Speaker:and trying to get Sharkey's romantic attention.
Speaker:Sharkey was not actually interested in Rocky,
Speaker:but he responded in exactly the way that you would want people to respond
Speaker:to polite but unwanted overtures, which is he was like,
Speaker:"I'm not feeling it but let's be friends."
Speaker:So he and Rocky were friends,
Speaker:some ducks and geese were friends.
Speaker:And then came a time when a duckling was abandoned by her mother,
Speaker:and Sharkey invited her to move into his house with her aunt.
Speaker:And so, for quite a few months,
Speaker:there was this little house
Speaker:in which a rooster rescued from cockfighting,
Speaker:an abandoned duckling and her aunt all lived together,
Speaker:with Sharkey and the duck co-parenting the duckling.
Speaker:Several months after that, the ducks moved over to another coop
Speaker:and Sharkey stayed where he was for a while
Speaker:and then he was like, "You know what? I think I want to follow them."
Speaker:So then he moved to where they were, when he got to meet hens
Speaker:and was pretty excited about that.
Speaker:And I am--
Speaker:I think he came to my mind because we're supposed to talk
Speaker:about queering animal liberation today.
Speaker:And while I'm not entirely sure of Sharkey's sexual orientation,
Speaker:his approach to relationships was definitely queer.
Speaker:He was ready to have his queer family.
Speaker:And his queer circle of friends
Speaker:and be fabulously himself.
Speaker:Despite the fact that he started off life
Speaker:in a form of animal abuse
Speaker:that was designed to force him
Speaker:to enact toxic masculinity.
Speaker:And he just was not interested in toxic masculinity.
Speaker:Which brings me to our guest, Christopher Sebastian.
Speaker:Sebastian, I'm always so excited to see you.
Speaker:Welcome to the show.
Speaker:Thank you so much for having me here.
Speaker:And you are someone who absolutely has rejected toxic masculinity,
Speaker:and I've heard you talk about that
Speaker:in many facets
Speaker:as a black gay man who is devoted
Speaker:to the self-determination and freedom of animals.
Speaker:So I want to invite you to share any of your thoughts about that
Speaker:before we delve into some of the other things
Speaker:that we might want to talk about today.
Speaker:Oh, man. Toxic masculinity is one of those things
Speaker:that does come up for me over and over again.
Speaker:Simply because like, when you look at me by sheer presentation,
Speaker:I'm not like an overtly masculine man.
Speaker:Like, you know, all of the traditional markers of,
Speaker:you know, of masculinity.
Speaker:And it's always been like that for me.
Speaker:So it's always been a struggle as someone who kind of sits
Speaker:like a little femme of center,
Speaker:like, you know, with this world
Speaker:that really upholds and uplifts toxic masculinity.
Speaker:Because like, you know,
Speaker:I don't fit into any of those boxes
Speaker:and it's really difficult for me to navigate the world--
Speaker:Or let me rephrase that.
Speaker:It had been difficult for me to navigate the world,
Speaker:like, as my authentic self
Speaker:until I made a conscious decision that I belong here
Speaker:and inviting other people to make that decision for themselves
Speaker:as well in my life.
Speaker:So, yeah, that had been really hard for me
Speaker:and I won't lie that it's still hard at times right now,
Speaker:like it does have its challenges,
Speaker:It's always challenging to live as your authentic self every day,
Speaker:but I have a lot of support that I'm deeply, deeply grateful for
Speaker:and I want to make space for other people to do the same
Speaker:as often as I can and wherever I can.
Speaker:Do you see toxic masculinity
Speaker:as harming animals as well as humans?
Speaker:Absolutely, undoubtedly.
Speaker:Like, you know, I never ever, ever get tired of talking about--
Speaker:One of my points of entry into the world of animal activism
Speaker:being through the work of Carol Adams,
Speaker:and I think her book is like over 25 years old now,
Speaker:The Sexual Politics of Meat, and when I read that
Speaker:a lot of light bulbs went off for me,
Speaker:and really started me down a path of interrogating for myself.
Speaker:What an animal-friendly world would look like
Speaker:if we didn't like exploit other animals
Speaker:and treat them as if they're objects
Speaker:that are here for our use and for our enjoyment?
Speaker:And, so, yeah, that's--
Speaker:That the toxic masculinity clearly has had an impact
Speaker:on our animal friends and family members.
Speaker:Even in the story that you were just telling about Sharkey,
Speaker:who I am not at all upset got on the property ladder before I did,
Speaker:with his lovely home.
Speaker:But like, you know, the fact that toxic masculinity
Speaker:has defined what relationships,
Speaker:what family relationships are supposed to look like,
Speaker:and the exclusion of other animals
Speaker:from what a "real family" is.
Speaker:Like, you know, family is defined as a man, a woman, 2.4 children
Speaker:or whatever the decimal percentages of how many children is ideal.
Speaker:And for so many people,
Speaker:queer people, straight people, you know what, our families are chosen,
Speaker:our families look significantly different.
Speaker:And I resent any ideology that tells me
Speaker:that my family is incomplete
Speaker:or my family is a counterfeit
Speaker:or that my family is not valid because it doesn't fit the model
Speaker:that this patriarchal system that we live in is,
Speaker:the way that that's set up.
Speaker:And so like, you know,
Speaker:I do fight against that and I challenge anyone
Speaker:to tell me that my non-human family members
Speaker:are not my family members,
Speaker:to discount that, to discount the grief that we experience
Speaker:when they pass on from this world.
Speaker:Like, you know, to discount the celebrations that we have,
Speaker:the real and meaningful relationships that we have with one another.
Speaker:And that's just one of the many ways
Speaker:that toxic masculinity intrudes on our personal lives
Speaker:and on a subconscious level,
Speaker:because most of the time we're not even thinking about it.
Speaker:And then I hear a story like Sharkey's,
Speaker:where he has adopted his entire large family.
Speaker:Of multiple species no less,
Speaker:and that's beautiful to me.
Speaker:It was among the most beautiful family groupings
Speaker:I've ever had the pleasure of--
Speaker:I guess I was part of his extended family, so participating in.
Speaker:But I'm thinking about, as you say that,
Speaker:I'm thinking about how sometimes
Speaker:even animal advocates don't quite understand,
Speaker:when we say we're interested in queering animal liberation,
Speaker:what we mean by queering.
Speaker:Because sometimes people think, well, that's only about like, including LGBTQ+
Speaker:people or thinking, specifically,
Speaker:about the intersections
Speaker:between homophobia and transphobia and speciesism.
Speaker:All of which are included in what I think about of as queering animal liberation,
Speaker:but I think of this word "queering" as larger than that
Speaker:and also thinking about queering what it means to be human,
Speaker:queering what we mean by a family.
Speaker:And so, so many people regardless of their sexual orientation, as you say,
Speaker:have a much queerer conception of family
Speaker:than the heteronormative norm.
Speaker:And so, I was so happy that you brought that up.
Speaker:In the queering animal liberation workshops that we've done it, VINE,
Speaker:for more than 20 years now,
Speaker:very frequently, straight male participants
Speaker:will talk about being called homophobic slurs
Speaker:because they refuse to eat meat,
Speaker:or refuse to go hunting
Speaker:or refuse to participate in some other form of animal abuse
Speaker:that's coded as traditionally masculine.
Speaker:And one of those is trapping
Speaker:and that reminds me of a story that I've heard you tell
Speaker:about a trapper in California.
Speaker:Can you share this with with our viewers?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely. This is actually a really great story.
Speaker:I read about it in the LA Times,
Speaker:although I'm sure that it was in multiple newspapers.
Speaker:And I'm paraphrasing the quote here, but the premise of the history
Speaker:is that fewer people are wearing fur
Speaker:for various reasons,
Speaker:for ethical reasons, for environmental reasons
Speaker:and whatever have you, and the trappers were complaining.
Speaker:But basically, there was a quote from one trapper
Speaker:who went by the name of Nick Catrina, I believe his name was,
Speaker:and the quote that they had chosen in this particular article
Speaker:was that animal rights groups are led by--
Speaker:they are terrorist organizations led by lesbians
Speaker:who are going to ban trapping
Speaker:and in their march toward communism are also going to ban fur.
Speaker:What you're saying is that he's saying that animal rights organizations
Speaker:are a) terrorist organizations; b) led by lesbians;
Speaker:and our form of terrorism is to ban trapping.
Speaker:And we're coming for hunting too, as part of our communist agenda.
Speaker:Right, as part of our communist agenda.
Speaker:You know, I mean, some of this is true.
Speaker:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker:This is like, we don't make a secret out of it.
Speaker:(laughter)
Speaker:I personally have a t-shirt and wouldn't it be great if like
Speaker:animal rights organizations were led by lesbians?
Speaker:Like, I feel like we would be a lot more productive.
Speaker:On a personal level,
Speaker:I think that like, we would be way better organized.
Speaker:But yeah, I absolutely love this quote.
Speaker:But I feel like in saying this,
Speaker:this is an example of someone saying the quiet part out loud,
Speaker:like, because coded within this, as you were saying
Speaker:is like, you know, is what we really feel
Speaker:about, not just queer people,
Speaker:but in particular targeting lesbians as the leaders of this organization--
Speaker:of these organizations really reveals the inherent fear
Speaker:that these people have of deposing toxic masculinity,
Speaker:of patriarchal values
Speaker:and really isolating them and exposing them for what they are.
Speaker:And marrying this to communism as well,
Speaker:is just like, you know, it's another dog whistle
Speaker:If you have, that these people engage in.
Speaker:And so I'm really grateful for people
Speaker:like Mr. Catrina, who actually say these things
Speaker:very, very publicly
Speaker:and kind of revealing what the thought process is
Speaker:and allowing us to have some sort of insight
Speaker:into the unconscious messaging
Speaker:that's actually going out there
Speaker:to people that they consider to be part of their in-group
Speaker:and who they consider to be part of their out-groups.
Speaker:When you were talking I was remembering this experience that I had
Speaker:in the summer of 2020
Speaker:or it might have been the spring of 2021.
Speaker:So VINE Sanctuary,
Speaker:we helped to organize a weekly Black Lives Matter vigil,
Speaker:in our small and almost all-white town of Springfield, Vermont.
Speaker:And so we were out there every Friday afternoon
Speaker:and in the good weather often had really interesting conversations
Speaker:with people in which I learned a lot of things
Speaker:about how people think.
Speaker:But I'm thinking in particular of this one episode
Speaker:where the vigil had ended and Anna Boarini and I
Speaker:Iwere carrying the signs back to our cars,
Speaker:and this man who had driven past honking his horn angrily
Speaker:and then parked in the parking lot
Speaker:came charging up to us,
Speaker:accusing us of various things,
Speaker:communism was definitely in there,
Speaker:destroying the family was definitely in there.
Speaker:But there came a point when
Speaker:I in a very mild-mannered tone, he was very aggressive,
Speaker:and if we weren't in quite such a public place in the daylight,
Speaker:it would have been a bit scary, his body posture,
Speaker:and at some point I, in a pretty mild-mannered tone,
Speaker:acknowledge that I was in fact a lesbian
Speaker:who did in fact
Speaker:support socialism
Speaker:and did in fact think that the family needed to be
Speaker:reconfigured.
Speaker:Alright, you're the worst kind of person.
Speaker:Wait, wait, wait, he literally jumped backwards in fear.
Speaker:(laughter)
Speaker:I'm so sorry. (continues laughing)
Speaker:Jumped! This guy who had been like charging at us
Speaker:with his big-ass truck that probably had a gun in it
Speaker:and he was all belted up
Speaker:and he had been charging at us on,
Speaker:and then backing off, but then charging again,
Speaker:sort of like a rooster in a cockfighting match.
Speaker:And then when I was just like, well, you know, yeah,
Speaker:we kind of do need to reconfigure-- Yes, I am a lesbian and we do need
Speaker:to reconfigure the family. Boom!
Speaker:This isn't hard by the way. I actually want these things, yes.
Speaker:(giggles)
Speaker:Imagine like this is--
Speaker:what's really also really funny about the story is that
Speaker:this is an example of how just absolute honesty,
Speaker:blindingly bright honesty,
Speaker:it absolutely just puts the fear of God in people.
Speaker:You literally frightened this man
Speaker:by confessing to the agenda that he already knew that you had.
Speaker:And it was-- yes.
Speaker:And it was it was funny in the moment.
Speaker:But it also really got me thinking
Speaker:about the degree to which fear is driving,
Speaker:you know, some of this aggressive backlash.
Speaker:I mean it was so instinctive the way that he literally,
Speaker:it was like a cartoon, the way that he jumped backwards in fear,
Speaker:and then it became just so clear to see
Speaker:that just like roosters in cockfighting,
Speaker:who's aggressive behavior by the way is entirely due to terror,
Speaker:and having been socialized
Speaker:to the point where they don't know what to do with that terror except attack.
Speaker:I can't quite clarify but he reminded me of,
Speaker:you know, a rooster who had been traumatized into cockfighting.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And of course he would remind you of that
Speaker:because at the end of the day,
Speaker:one of the things that we forget,
Speaker:is that we as humans are not special.
Speaker:Like the idea of us being exceptional
Speaker:to all of the other species on this planet is an absurdity.
Speaker:It's not based on any type of scientific fact or reality.
Speaker:And we are just animals with our own instinctive responses,
Speaker:and that fear response is one of the things
Speaker:that is not entirely universal,
Speaker:but like the way that you've described it,
Speaker:it's something that we do observe
Speaker:in many different types of persons, irrespective of their species.
Speaker:And it is so funny that this is a fear response.
Speaker:Like you literally confirmed his worst fears.
Speaker:But more importantly,
Speaker:what exactly it is he's afraid of.
Speaker:Larger families that are much more meaningful, that are chosen,
Speaker:like a world in which we take care of one another,
Speaker:Right, healthcare for everybody. So scary.
Speaker:How?
Speaker:And again, it's revealing.
Speaker:I guess and so I don't want to laugh at it too much
Speaker:even though, you know, given the degree to which he aggressed me,
Speaker:then I feel like it's fair to laugh at him,
Speaker:but still
Speaker:it just-- and what you just said reminds me that
Speaker:we humans we're not the supreme beings who we think we are,
Speaker:a huge piece of the human supremacy ideology,
Speaker:is this idea that we're the rational animal
Speaker:and that the things we think up in our heads
Speaker:are what drive our behaviors,
Speaker:when, in fact, it's an intermingling of emotion and reason,
Speaker:and if anything emotion is a stronger driver of behavior,
Speaker:than reason.
Speaker:But I notice among many activists, not just in animal advocacy,
Speaker:but particularly in animal advocacy,
Speaker:activists crafting their strategies as though humans were
Speaker:rational animals.
Speaker:Oh, yeah.
Speaker:(laughter)
Speaker:That's one of the things that I end up speaking about
Speaker:so frequently these days,
Speaker:especially looking at the way that animal activism
Speaker:is done across social media.
Speaker:One of the things that we have most rewarded,
Speaker:I would say, on social media
Speaker:is this style of activism
Speaker:that overvalues logic, the "logic bros" if you will,
Speaker:as they're called on the internet,
Speaker:and we're going to reason
Speaker:our way to liberation
Speaker:by having these conversations with people
Speaker:and once people have perceived all of the things that I've had to say
Speaker:and they have internalized all of the knowledge
Speaker:that I as the speaker have conferred upon them,
Speaker:then they'll go vegan,
Speaker:they'll become activists,
Speaker:they will advocate for animals.
Speaker:They'll do all of the things, all of the things.
Speaker:When in reality, that is just a reproduction--
Speaker:a) it's a reproduction of the missionary style activism
Speaker:that we see in Evangelical Christianity,
Speaker:which is largely a white construction,
Speaker:a patriarchal construction,
Speaker:and I know Breeze Harper has talked about that.
Speaker:And secondly, it is actually not that effective.
Speaker:It doesn't work that way.
Speaker:By sheer numbers, even if we had converted,
Speaker:every single person that we spoke to and I do hate the word conversion,
Speaker:we would still not outnumber,
Speaker:the number of people that are born into a world
Speaker:that is violently bigoted towards other animals,
Speaker:every single minute.
Speaker:And it actually doesn't work that way.
Speaker:Like, the inertia of what is familiar to us
Speaker:always drags-- I shouldn't say always, but oftentimes drags us back
Speaker:into that violent animal bigotry
Speaker:and it is that "reasoning",
Speaker:when in fact most, I would say,
Speaker:most types of domination are driven by power,
Speaker:they're driven by emotion.
Speaker:We are not rational beings that we proclaim to be.
Speaker:And that is the unfortunate reality.
Speaker:For me, another piece of queering animal liberation
Speaker:is approaching the emotion side.
Speaker:Of course, we want to say logical things when that's appropriate,
Speaker:especially if you're talking to someone
Speaker:who seems like they're going to be motivated
Speaker:to bring themselves into some sort of logical consistency.
Speaker:But I feel
Speaker:that it's probably going to be more effective
Speaker:to inspire people to reach for what they want.
Speaker:And everybody wants.
Speaker:Relationships,
Speaker:good relationships,
Speaker:regardless of sexuality, we want queer relationships.
Speaker:We want relationships that are beyond
Speaker:the binaries that have been imposed on us.
Speaker:We want to be part of the rich world of interrelationships
Speaker:or at least our bodies want that.
Speaker:And through our socialization into toxic masculinity,
Speaker:into animal abuse and into the gender binary,
Speaker:and so many other problematic constructions,
Speaker:we end up reaching for pleasure
Speaker:in ways that aren't particularly pleasurable.
Speaker:By trying to dominate and control other people or buying stuff.
Speaker:And it seems to me that
Speaker:our deep relationships
Speaker:with other animals, including but not limited to other humans,
Speaker:are much more richly rewarding.
Speaker:And so, for me, I feel like queering animal liberation
Speaker:has got to be at least a part about
Speaker:pulling people toward that,
Speaker:activating that wish for relationship
Speaker:rather than logical argumentation.
Speaker:Do you think so?
Speaker:100% yes.
Speaker:I would absolutely say that like, you know, conversations--
Speaker:How do I put this? This is something that has really troubled me
Speaker:on a number of levels for a long time.
Speaker:When we talk about
Speaker:what is effective activism or what is effective advocacy?
Speaker:So many times we are talking about being reasonable
Speaker:and trying to stay away from an emotional place.
Speaker:And that on a personal level, that has been really hard for me.
Speaker:If I could be frank,
Speaker:one of the things that troubles me as a queer person,
Speaker:as a black person,
Speaker:is the number of queer people and black people
Speaker:and queer black people,
Speaker:who have specifically
Speaker:given guidance to myself and to others
Speaker:that we should focus a lot of our work
Speaker:on things that are more concrete, if you will.
Speaker:I.E. focusing our advocacy on health,
Speaker:focusing our advocacy on environmental issues.
Speaker:And that's been a harm for me.
Speaker:That's been a harm for me because I have internalized that advice
Speaker:and I tried to follow that advice and largely, it has been an ineffective,
Speaker:not only because it's been inauthentic for me,
Speaker:But I don't see that as being a liberatory work
Speaker:because ultimately, what people have sought to do
Speaker:and I say "people", hashtag not all,
Speaker:but what a lot of people have sought to do
Speaker:is try to make their work,
Speaker:make their advocacy for the other person that they're advocating to.
Speaker:I want to put something in it for you. There's something in this for you.
Speaker:Like, you know, if you do this thing,
Speaker:if you do X, Y will happen.
Speaker:If you go vegan, for example,
Speaker:we'll save water, the climate will be cleaner,
Speaker:you'll have a better place to live.
Speaker:Not necessarily demonstrated to be true.
Speaker:If you do this, then you'll have a better health outcome.
Speaker:And that's not necessarily proven to be true.
Speaker:And in many cases it's an incredibly ableist framing
Speaker:of our work.
Speaker:For me,
Speaker:what has felt most honest, what has felt most compelling
Speaker:and what I have had greatest success with is talking to people
Speaker:honestly about our shared liberation
Speaker:and the need for our shared liberation.
Speaker:And so much of this I've learned from you, watching your talks,
Speaker:the commonality of oppression
Speaker:that you have described.
Speaker:Is just a way of observing
Speaker:the need for integrating animal liberation into our queer work and vice versa.
Speaker:It's been-- That has been revolutionary for me
Speaker:because you're talking about not what's in it for you.
Speaker:But what's in it for us together.
Speaker:That is so empowering to me.
Speaker:That is so queer to me.
Speaker:Because it's these ideas that we need to talk about things
Speaker:that are very concrete and that have some measurable reward
Speaker:for you as an individual.
Speaker:That to me feels incredibly toxic, incredibly--
Speaker:that feels to me like something that comes from
Speaker:this patriarchal, very dominant framing
Speaker:because, what is it about?
Speaker:Like, someone else's liberation project?
Speaker:Why do I need to benefit from that?
Speaker:Solidarity is not about that, not for me anyway,
Speaker:so I mean, I'm very grateful
Speaker:for that understanding that I got from you
Speaker:and from others that have been doing exactly that work.
Speaker:It has really-- it has very much cleared me up,
Speaker:it has freed me in many ways.
Speaker:Well, that's so good to hear
Speaker:because I like the idea of you free
Speaker:and feeling free.
Speaker:My feeling is a little mixed.
Speaker:I feel like, I feel like...
Speaker:I feel like it's okay, for me.
Speaker:I'm just saying, for me, I feel like it's okay,
Speaker:specially if I'm talking to someone who's got struggles,
Speaker:to let them know
Speaker:the ways that eating more fruits and vegetables could be good
Speaker:and they probably already know that,
Speaker:so it's more a matter of working to create access to that.
Speaker:And I feel like it's okay to talk about climate.
Speaker:And to talk about all these things, as long as it's within this
Speaker:liberatory framework that you talk about.
Speaker:So I don't have quite the negative reaction you have
Speaker:to maybe leading with something that you know is on someone's mind,
Speaker:whether that'd be pollution of the environment,
Speaker:or their personal health,
Speaker:as long as that's within a framework of what's good for us.
Speaker:Not just what's good for you.
Speaker:As you put it, I love the way you put that:
Speaker:not what's in it for you,
Speaker:but what's in it for us together and creating that feeling of us.
Speaker:Yeah. No, and that's profoundly true. That is profoundly true.
Speaker:I think that like we're--
Speaker:There are a couple of things that operate
Speaker:in my mind when I'm going through this process,
Speaker:number one, when I-- I never--
Speaker:Oh boy. This is the part where I start getting into trouble, right?
Speaker:I rarely am doing "animal advocacy", if you will,
Speaker:to marginalize people
Speaker:who are living hand-to-mouth, if you will,
Speaker:who are in dire circumstances.
Speaker:The work that I do, within those communities is for them.
Speaker:I don't-- I'm not going leafleting
Speaker:in the hood, if you will.
Speaker:And so for me, this isn't something that actually comes up in my work.
Speaker:Although I know that it does for others.
Speaker:And the other thing
Speaker:is that, you know, what you had said about access is so important,
Speaker:because if I am having conversations
Speaker:with people who don't have the level of privilege that I've got,
Speaker:like my conversation is about how can I make your life easier?
Speaker:While also making sure
Speaker:that we are minimizing your participation in this exploitative system.
Speaker:And this is why I so strongly support your work.
Speaker:The work of food empowerment project.
Speaker:The work of food justice organizations
Speaker:that are actively creating that access.
Speaker:Because food Justice is an adjacent issue that we absolutely need to address
Speaker:but I'm never going to people
Speaker:and making animal advocacy
Speaker:the framework that I'm hanging their food justice around, if you will,
Speaker:but I am integrating that liberation
Speaker:into the work that I'm doing in those communities.
Speaker:And I just want to say one more thing about climate.
Speaker:I was actually working on a piece that I was writing
Speaker:just last week and I came across the statistic
Speaker:that was talking about us collectively staying within our climate goals
Speaker:of staying under 1.5 points,
Speaker:1.5 degrees Celsius
Speaker:in order to avoid the worst effects of climate change in the future
Speaker:which were rapidly running out of time to do.
Speaker:And one of statistics that I came across
Speaker:was the fact that 50% of people
Speaker:right now, including people in the USA,
Speaker:which we consider a "first world nation", if you will,
Speaker:which all of that is problematic language unto itself,
Speaker:but 50% of people in Western countries
Speaker:are already living within their climate budget
Speaker:for those projections.
Speaker:It's the top 10%.
Speaker:And so the utility of going to people and telling them,
Speaker:"You got to stop eating animals, man."
Speaker:When their lifestyle, which includes their diet,
Speaker:which includes the textiles that they buy,
Speaker:which includes all of the other ways that we exploit animals,
Speaker:already is within our climate budget.
Speaker:And so it feels in some ways fundamentally dishonest,
Speaker:it feels like, you're giving credence to the people that are saying--
Speaker:What do you look like going to poor people and telling them what they need to do,
Speaker:when it's like, the top percentage of people that are actually causing
Speaker:climate change
Speaker:and I stopped, and I looked at that statistic
Speaker:and I'm like, they're kind of right.
Speaker:And so for me,
Speaker:having that conversation about climate,
Speaker:again, an adjacent interrelated issue,
Speaker:these things are all woven together, aren't they?
Speaker:But it would feel, for me,
Speaker:fundamentally dishonest to say,
Speaker:"Well, you - person who is part of that 50%,
Speaker:there was already living in your climate budget
Speaker:and was already dealing with a mountain of other problems -
Speaker:you have to..." It's very condescending, isn't?
Speaker:"...you have to stop eating animals because of the climate.
Speaker:No, you have to stop eating animals because that's a terrible thing to do
Speaker:and I don't want to insult you by thinking
Speaker:that you can't actually think of the ethical implications of that.
Speaker:Because you can and you already do.
Speaker:And like, we have the social science that backs that up.
Speaker:Poor people have a lot more empathy than rich people
Speaker:and that's one of the things that really--
Speaker:that operates in my mind
Speaker:when I'm thinking about these things.
Speaker:It's not an entirely negative reaction.
Speaker:And I don't make other people wrong for doing it,
Speaker:but it's not the way that I want to approach my work.
Speaker:And so that's more the point that I wanted to make,
Speaker:and I'm so sorry, please, go.
Speaker:Don't be sorry.
Speaker:For me... hmm.
Speaker:I feel like climate
Speaker:is
Speaker:the biggest emergency
Speaker:for non-human animals worldwide
Speaker:and I mean, of course I'm interested
Speaker:in encouraging anybody
Speaker:to reduce or eliminate their animal product consumption
Speaker:for any reason, including climate.
Speaker:I want people to stop eating animals,
Speaker:and it's more important to me that they do so
Speaker:than what is in their head about why they are doing so,
Speaker:but what I really want is to bring,
Speaker:and then we're back to the queering animal liberation
Speaker:and running out of time as well,
Speaker:is to bring people into
Speaker:more of a feeling of connectedness
Speaker:to "the environment", which feels like something outside of you
Speaker:as opposed to something inside of you every time you breathe in.
Speaker:Oxygen that was made by trees and algae and without which you could not live.
Speaker:I'm interested in everybody
Speaker:feeling part of
Speaker:the climate that is changing and experiencing in our own bodies,
Speaker:which I think we already are.
Speaker:Like I think some of these exaggerated fears that people have
Speaker:is that people already know, their bodies know the climate is changing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So...
Speaker:I don't know how if I'm saying this right, but sort of just bringing people
Speaker:back into a feeling of connectedness
Speaker:to "the environment" and feeling part of it.
Speaker:So that climate change becomes an emergency for us too
Speaker:and we start to act appropriately
Speaker:and...
Speaker:and have the energy to do it,
Speaker:because we do feel supported by the trees.
Speaker:This is real.
Speaker:That's like, you know,
Speaker:that to me is a different conversation
Speaker:and it's a necessary conversation.
Speaker:What I want to avoid is
Speaker:giving people bad information
Speaker:or giving people the opportunity to reject our messaging
Speaker:because we have come in bad faith, if you will,
Speaker:making promises
Speaker:that are not necessarily backed up by the information,
Speaker:the fact that we have in front of us,.
Speaker:That, that you described,
Speaker:is a different, much more radical conversation to have
Speaker:and making people feel connected to the world that we're living in,
Speaker:in a way that doesn't compartmentalize, like, this is where I live.
Speaker:and then the climate, or the environment, is something that's far away.
Speaker:That doesn't affect me or that I'm not a part of,
Speaker:and that is real and a necessary thing to do.
Speaker:And it is empowering to give people that agency
Speaker:or to provide people with the tools because it sounds like, again,
Speaker:very condescending to think that we're bequeathing agency to people,
Speaker:but give people the tools, the understanding
Speaker:that they do already have that agency
Speaker:and that we outnumber the people that are wrecking the world
Speaker:by and large.
Speaker:And we have to do that because like I said, we're running out of time.
Speaker:Metaphorically and physically.
Speaker:And literally, we are running out of time.
Speaker:But but speaking of radical conversations, every conversation I ever have with you
Speaker:is a radical conversation
Speaker:and I'm so grateful that you joined me for a conversation today.
Speaker:I've completely forgotten, as usual,
Speaker:to help people understand who you might be,
Speaker:you work with so many different organizations,
Speaker:I know you wanted me to give a shout out to Encompass,
Speaker:which you're on the advisory panel of
Speaker:and the Peace Advocacy Network,
Speaker:you're on the board of that organization.
Speaker:And if people want to know more about you, they can Google you
Speaker:and find lectures galore on topics Galore.
Speaker:And so, I want to encourage everybody to do that.
Speaker:I've been speaking with Christopher Sebastian.
Speaker:And if you Google Christopher Sebastian, you will find some things.
Speaker:I'm pattrice jones, this has been In Context.
Speaker:If you want to know about upcoming episodes
Speaker:or watch recordings of past episodes
Speaker:you can visit the VINE Sanctuary website at vinesanctuary.org
Speaker:and look for the In Context page.
Speaker:I want to thank our guest, Christopher Sebastian.
Speaker:I want to thank our producer, Sarahjane Blum.
Speaker:And I want to thank you for tuning in
Speaker:and for all of the amazingly queer activism
Speaker:you're going to do after listening to this conversation.
Speaker:Thank you!
